A bit of CF card info

[Ben]

Hi all,

I`ve been studying the CF specifications on CF cards and they pretty much go for Microdrives as well.
The S2, as far as I could gather, with 99.9% certainty uses the FAT 16 filesystem. (Canon-10D, in the 'S2 price' range, use the FAT32)
This has the 'disadvantage' of only being able to use upto 2GB drives (if one can call it a disadvantage)

The S2 CANNOT make use of the higher speed cards to speed up storage. Although the cards can be read and written quicker, the S2 is fixed at a constant read/write rate(it can still use them). So why pay more for features the S2 can`t use.


I have 6 128Mb cards, I use them like film. When one is full, pop out the 'full' one and plug in the 'new'.
*I got the 128Mb at a very good price and bought a couple...
256 or 512 would be nice. 1Gb.... I would not concider.

This has the following advantages:
- If a card should fail, which they do, one only lose a couple of pics, 55 or so if full resolution JPEG, 9 if RAW :)
- CF cards have a limited lifespan, they are FLASH technology, which has a write/erase life of about 100,000 times (this will depend on temperature and circumstances, and manufacturer)
Allot you migth say, not when it comes to bits and bytes...
- If you cycle your cards the chances of 'over- erasing/writing' is less likely to occur.

Disadvantage:
- The CF cardslot takes a bit of a knock, but if S2 use a proper spec CF connector the contacts should last at least 1,000,000
inserts (user damage excluded).

Hope this makes you think, the next time a salesman try and sell you a CF card.

[Swampy]

Ben, have you researched far enough to be able to tell what the max read and write speed is of the S2 to back your statement up of "...S2 CANNOT make use of the higher speed cards..."?

Can you define what "higher speed cards" are in speed? 24x? 40x? 50x?

In a simple test by myself with just 3 different cards (one really cheap 8x, one middle of the road card, and one "more expensive". The more expensive wrote images faster. So I don't get what you're saying. Here's what I found...

True write speeds with the camera:

Kingston standard 512MB - 907.49Kb/s
Kingston Pro 512MB - 1158.73Kb/s
Lexar 80MB HP 8x - 645.63Kb/s

Read Speeds through USB Reader:

Kingston standard 512MB - 998.00Kb/s (Average)
Kingston Pro 512MB - 882.00Kb/s (Average)
Lexar 80MB HP 8x - 998.00Kb/s (Average)

[pauly99]

Ben, I as well as many others may be very interested in this thread because it seems that we are always trying to tweak the camera to get the best possible performance. I currently have a Lexar 512mb 40x WA compact flash card and have recently contacted Fuji regarding the possiblity of a firmware upgrade to enhance the speed of the so called quicker cards and the Write Ahead ability. I received the following response from Fuji which goes along with the information that they promote through the manual. Although I enjoy shooting in Raw mode, if a 40x is no better than a 4x then why not save the money and make the next 512mb purchase a much cheaper one? Make sense?


"Unfortunately, we do not have firmware updates available for the FinePix S2 Pro digital camera. Please be advised that Fuji Film recommends the IBM Microdrive or Smart Media card for the FinePix S2 Pro digital camera. Although, some CF cards may work, we do not have test documentation for each brand available on the market and performance is not guaranteed. If you opt to use CF, a minimum of 16x type II is recommended however, we still cannot guarantee operation of all CF models marketed.

We sincerely hope that this information has been beneficial to you. If you should have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us again. It would be our pleasure to assist you.

Thank you for your interest in Fujifilm Digital Imaging products and services.

Respectfully,
Digital Agent 3119
Digital Imaging Website Technician
Technical Help Desk
Consumer Information Service Center
Corporate Communications Division
Fuji Photo Film, USA"

[sandman]

Paully
It's baffling why fuji is actively discouraging the use of C/F cards , judging by their statement it seems that the're are so many different brands of cards out there , and as they can't test them all , the've issued a general disclaimer to cover their backs. But it might also be that they want us to buy their own brand cards ,although they have moved to the Xd card and away from smart media.

I have 4x 128 sandisk ultra , 2 x 256 ultra's ,and a 512 C/F they all suit my needs , i also have a 1gig microdrive, which came as a deal on the camera, but i hardly use that as i only take 50 or pics at a time on 3024 fine jpeg, so the smaller cards are fine ,so any disasters are not too serious. But i do use the M/D when shooting raw . i also have various S/M cards which i bought for my 6800, but also use sometimes on the S2.

As for the ultra's extra speed ,i've not tested it , don't REALLY need it , just sometimes the downloading time made me a little impatient. so i splashed out when i had to buy one (i got a deal on buy 2 get 1 free ).

Just my two pence worth.

[LinhLe]

I use a 1G Lexar 38X card, and it works well with my S2.
I could have 77 pictures in raw format with it.
With another 128M Smart Disks and a 20G storage ($ 235 Digital Photo Library from I/O Mega), I think that I have enough memory for 2 or 2 days trip
Lính Lệ

[pauly99]

Sandman, Although it was not my original intention I am finding that I am taking an overwhelming (to my liking) amount of sports (action) pictures. I am so used to the N80 that using the S2 is second nature... thus I am not looking to purchase a quicker camera at double the price at this point in time. While Fuji may not be looking to actively support the use of CF cards, I think that the majority of users do use the CF cards over any other type of media.

I guess what I am trying to extract out of Ben is specific write information and whether it makes any sense whatsover to purchase the high speed (read high cost) CF cards. Not knowing any better and before I found out the Fuji does not support (unlike the Nikon D100) Write Ahead (acceleration) technology, I purchased the 512mb 40x WA. And if a 40x is no quicker in writing than a 4x then why not save the extra 50 pounds ($75). :D

[sandman]

Pauly
I totaly agree, i don't know if i wasted mony on my cards, personaly i don't care the're good cards anyway. but with the majority of users proberby using C/F cards , FUJI is being shortsighted in it's approach to this issue.

[pauly99]

I agree totally Sandman. Nonetheless we love our S2's.

[sandman]

Amen to that pauly.

[Wichita Wayne]

If you look at Fuji history you will notice that they promoted the SmartMedia cards from the beginning. In fact to my knowledge they never produced a camera that could use CF cards until the S-series of DSLRs, and even then they advicated the use of Microdrives in those slots. The SmartMedia card is the No. 1 storage media in Japan and this may have something to do with their position. SmartMedia is also a dumb memory device. It depends on the camera to do the processing, and this might make for a more compatable system. CF cards and Microdrives are smart devices that do their own control processing, and there may be a lot of different controllers out there. The engineers that designed and developed the S2Pro seemed to optomize it for SmartMedia and the Microdrive controller. I have all three and get good results with all three, but you cannot go in and just buy a CF card and expect it to work. Take you camera and test the CF devices before you walk out of the store. If you buy SmartMedia or Microdrives this is not a problem.

[pauly99]

Wayne, yes. I've learned to always bring in my camera when trying out different products.. ie lenses. I also checked out Rob Galbraith's site concerning speed of different CF cards and of course our own resident Swampy.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6014

Do you notice any difference whatsoever in speed between the SmartMedia, CF cards, or Microdrive?

[Wichita Wayne]

The Microdrive seems to be the clear winner when it comes to writing pictures but with the camera's buffer this is not really very important to me. If I need really fast shots I tend to turn to the Nikon F100 and its 5 fps speed with no picture limits other than the size of the roll of film that I use, and no shutter lag time. I have also never seen anything that focuses as fast as the F100. I wish they made a digital F100 but to Frankenstein an F100 would probably require some pretty heavy machine work on the metal frame. I suspect that the N80 is used because it is easier to modify the plastic frame.

But what I would really like to have would be a Hasselblad digital back with a square superslide sized sensor that would use a microdrive and AA batteries. Now that would be something that I could really love.

[Ben]

Hi all,

YIP, I suppose that is why the world is what the world is, we are all different.... and thats what makes the world an exiting place to live in (some personal philosophy :) ).

I agree with all the comment given, being in the electronics business, I see the rootlevel of things, the 'electrons' so to speak.

The CF cards are much like a HDD without the moving parts.
If you really look closely at most CF brands you will find that they are manufactured by but a few mayor supplier: SAMSUNG, RENESAS(HITACHI), etc.

All the mayor brand guys do is buy some 'blank' unlabled CF card and stick their label on it....

I bought some 128Mb RENESAS(ex. HITACHI) cards, they have no stickers on them, and WOW they work perfectly, who knows what BRAND NAME they could have been, had I not purchased them... My knowledge is to limited to know who buys these cards and stick their label on. If you look closely on the cards you will find a part number showing the manufacturer.

Yes I agree that some card can write faster than others, but if the 'PUMP' supplying the 'FIRE HOSE' is actually a 'WATERPISTOL',
then one cannot expect the 'FIREMAN' to douse flames on the top floor.... if you know what I mean....

The PUMP must be able to supply at high pressure. It does not
help getting another 'FIRE HOSE' or 'FIREMAN' (faster CF cards) there are limits.
(More personal philosophy)

Unfortunately the limits is within the S2, it can only pump out so much data at such a rate. Unfortunately one will have to go to grass roots level, such as the type of 'CPU/ASIC' speed to see what max speed is possible.
YES as flash technology gets more advanced it will be able to store data faster, but again if the 'storage rate = input rate' then thats it.

[stevebri]

I did a similar test when I got my S2 complete with 1GB Microdrive.

I shot 7 Full size RAW's and timed from the last shutter click to the orange light going off.

Microdrive was 45 seconds if I remember and the Sandisk 1GB card was 90 seconds.

I bought 2 more Microdrives and I do look after them, I have read about journalists having problems and I think you wedding guys too. If you are always out in the field or on the run shooting, then CF's make sense, if you are lucky enough to shoot in a controlled enviroment then maybe take a chance.

I also bought a couple of those rubber, sealed card holders and I think they help protect a lot.

I am now debating the portable HDD with built in reader or portable CD burner with card reader....

Anyone got either...?

Steve

[Wichita Wayne]

But, you won't like my answer. It is a laptop computer that I carry with me to remote shoots and weddings. That way I can download and see the pictures and back them up to a tiny external HDD that I built myself with a $20 case and an old laptop 6GB HDD. I also keep recovery software on the laptop that will deal with the occasional CF or MD file problems.

And what's more, I can get my email and check this forum out when I am away from home.

[Swampy]

yup, and since I really only travel in the states, I also have a CDMA wireless internet card so, if I have cell coverage, I can get on the internet at between 56k and 128k speeds.

[Wichita Wayne]

Just look at what you are missing. Nice little lake with water fowl in Ireland.

[Ben]

Steve,

I bought a VP2030 XS-DIRVE (6 in 1), it is the rock bottom version in it`s class, I imported it from the UK to RSA, and paid about 120 pounds with no HDD. I had an old laptop 6Gb HDD, and it works perfect. I don`t need all the bells and stuff of fancy storage devices, it adds to the cost, and that is why there are PCs, to do all kinds of funnies ! Its got a nice pouch and can almost fit in my shirt pocket. This device also work with MicroDrives, they are a bit heavier on electrical current though.

The fact that it takes a laptop HDD adds to its ruggedness(most of the portable device do take them), if you use the device and then switch it off, the HDD head gets parked and can take quite a pounding (within limits) . DON`t USE THESE DEVICES when you are not stationary, the laptop HDD`s are fairly rugged, but bumps and knock may kill them when they operate.

I mainly use it for storing CF card images, and so far no problems. The battery life lasts for about 40x 128Mb CF cards, and thats more than enough to store, before having to recharge. I will still make a car adapter and use it on safari. The only real thing that can get damaged is the HDD, if so then I will chuck the old 6Gb and get another HDD. The small drives (10Gb or less) are practically free and there are so many arround, since people upgrade to bigger laptop drives and discard the old ones.

I suppose there are many storage devices out there and some better than others, if you are a traveller taking the odd thousand or so images a day, YES get one suited for you. Otherwise invest in more CF cards !!

Wayne, you need to get to AFRICA, man ! Ireland is very wet and rainy, no lions and game, they do have nice trout and salmon though !!!

[stevebri]

Thanks Ben thats what I had hoped, I will buy two USB 2.0 X drive caddies and probably fit them with 20 gig Seagate Barracuda's.

Then my assistant can fill up each disk alternately whilst on location, plus if one drive fails, the other will have some data, sort of like a raid system. Or a bit like when you take loads of film to the lab, get them to develop all the odd numered films first then the evens, this way if the lab ****s it up, you don't lose everything, you probably have something on the beginning of roll two that was on the end of roll one etc...

If I can set up that security back up with these drives then we are well on our way.

Thanks again,

Steve

[Wichita Wayne]

And it was only $20 US. I put an old 6 GB laptop drive in it and it is great. I also have recommended it to friends that have done the same with good results.

http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=BLK-A-811

[stevebri]

As users we seem to have two options...

Look after microdrives, and have fast write times, or go with CF cards and accept slower write times.

Sounds good for everyone but war photographers... who probably use D1H's anyway...

Steve

[crabby]

Some CF now beats out Microdrives in write speeds and they don't take as long to fire up and don't use up batterry power.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6014

[cadams]

Anyone up for reviving this thread???

I, like many others, am curious as to what speed CF cards to buy. I currently have 20x 512mb Ridatas. My question is: Does an 80x card perform faster in the S2 than a 40x? Is the 40X faster than my 20X? If so, how much faster.

Steve's test (shoot 7 consecutive full size raw frames and measure the processing time) seems simple and effective enough to make this determination.

I repeated the test and my 20x card required 55 seconds to complete the task. Steve, what speed was your card (which took 90 sec.)? Would anyone else like to check their cards in this way and report the results?

Chuck

[stevebri]

I just tried my new Sandisk Ultra II 1gb drive against a new Hitachi (IBM) microdrive....

In real terms for shooting, there is practically nothing in it , just 2 seconds, but the price difference is high.

This weekend I'l do some more reading/writing/transferring tests.

Steve

[Auminer]

I, like many others, am curious as to what speed CF cards to buy.

Same here Chuck.

Thanks Steve, we'll be watching.

Dave

[Face]

Due to the fact that primary driver for Fuji is a SmartMedia driver , fuji cant go to the higher speed of write /read b/c the man controler is for Smart Media that is older solution.
The transfer buffer is low on thi controler.

But i think that fuji has only a slower controler b/c when u shoot with the shooting software and save the file on the laptop with a Fire Wire cable the transfer file from the camera internal memory goes faster around 3-5 times faster than writing the information to the CF or microdrive.

Also i noticed that shooting dark images with lower speed , calculating in seconds not 1/second he camera takes more time than usualy to write the file on the cf or microdrive, but this is not a controler question i think, but its take more proceses on the camera during their convertion from ccd mode to the desired mode.

I have one IBM microdrive and difrents of type o CF type II, Lexar, Apacher, SanDisk so i dont know just bay a CF and put it on my camera .

But i noticed that some of my CF , like Lexar and Apacher are faster than microdrive and consum less energy from the batery, the microdrive consum a lot of energy for the spin motor.

[frankgh]

I posted a link here about a cheap source for CF cards on eBay. A company called Dana-Elec is selling 512 MB card for less then $80.00 a piece. They are advertised has 40x cards. I got 2 of them and put them to a test against a plain old SanDisk 512 card. First I took 7 shots and timed the read buffer of my S2. The Dana-Elec took 1:11 to write the SanDisk only took 59.5 sec. I erased the cards and wrote 38 RAW files to them (478 MB) It took a whopping 5 min 53 sec to write to the Dana-Elec card and only 3 min 26 sec for the SanDisk. For the all important read test, it took the Dana-Elec card 1 min 32 sec to put those same RAW files back on the hard drive but the big surprise was that it took the BASIC SanDisk card a whole 22.5 sec! I had to do it twice to believe it! Now when I bought these Dana-Elec cards, the Basic SanDisk was around $120.00 so, I really don't mind spending a little more time transferring files and saving 80-90 bucks (I bought two). Are those extra few minutes/seconds that important to me? not really, when the card is full it goes into the x-drive and a fresh one goes in the camera. Now at this point in my post, I paused to check prices of the little SanDisk card... they are going for around $75.00 now, how do you like that? Am I upset, not really, the extra speed doesn't affect me that much. The card work well and have not failed (knock on wood, I really only used them a few times now). Just don't follow that link to eBay and expect a 40x card for 60-80 bucks.

[stevebri]

I bought quite expensive cards (but cheaper on eBay) purely because I looked at the CF data on robgalbraith.com. Also with a view to possibly buy a Kodak full frame Dslr or Nikon D2x later this year (I really need faster shooting and a bigger buffer).

Looking at the data on robgalbraith.com, then looking at prices of 1gb cards, the good old microdrives are the best 'bang for buck' no doubt, but I did have one (out of three) go wrong.

Based on this I bought a couple of the Sandisk Ultra II's. They are faster, no doubt, but as I said earlier, in real terms, not much, we are talking fractions of a second per shot written, so on a 7 or 8 shot buffer it's tiny.

What I think Fuji should do is tweak the image viewing software, i take a shot and i want to see it on the screen, I don't want it there for 3 seconds and then it's gone until the file has been written, it's almost as frustrating as waiting a minute and a half for a polaroid...!!!!!

Right now I have 4 x 1gb cards, two Sandisk Ultra II's and two Microdrives, I rotate there usage on each shoot and i must say, although my microdrive failed, it gave me plenty of warning, so no data was lost.

I think i'm covered for future failiure's (as much as one can be) and a shoot i did yesterday was a joy to able to shoot RAW's all day and swith to jpeg when we were doing 'blur and movement'.

Steve

[stevebri]

Right guys and gals... real world (read amateur) tests.

1 x IBM microdrive 1GB (1 yr old, came with camera)
1 x Hitachi microdrive 1GB (1 month old)
2 x Sandisk Ultra II 1GB (1 month old)

Some test parameters,

All cards formatted in camera and empty,
camera had fresh, fully charged batteries,
all tests were shot in RAW mode.

To write 7 RAW images to an empty card took approximately 50 seconds, now this time was from when i first depressed the shutter on shot 1, to when the light went out after writing file 7.

The Ultra II's were .57seconds quicker... so NOTHING IN IT REALLY.

Both Microdrives recorded EXACTLY the same times despite one being 1 yr old and has been used heavily.

Data Transfer to 'puter.

Test parameters

Internal USB 2.0 7-1 card reader to PC
Files were transferred to an empty 40gb Seagate internal IDE drive
Seagate drive was de fragged beforehand and old files removed.
Files were transferred using explorer and just 'dragged and dropped' onto the new drive.

Both Sandisk Ultra II's needed 3 minutes 11 secs each to dump 1GB worth of RAW files onto the Hard drive

Both Microdrives needed 5 minutes 17 seconds to do the same.

The RAW files were shot in camera until the cards were full, then transferred, all shots were just taken in my office, so the binary data in a RAW would all be similar.

All shots at ISO 100 STD STD STD.

Thoughts

If you are not a war journalist and look after your kit I see no reason not to buy a GENUINE (not referbished) Microdrive, capacity,performance,price They are unbeatable and the cheapest way to a decent sized (1GB) card with very high write times. However they do use more battery power than CF's and they are much slower to write to your 'puter.

The sandisk Ultra II's are expensive for no performance gain when you take the shots, for the extra money there is no magic wand, however, they are solid state, they use less juice, and if you plan to buy a new camera later this year, will probably perform better than the Microdrives. The gap on Rob Galbraith's database, for the S2 is not very big at all (4th as opposed to 7th)

But look at say the Kodak DCS Pro (4th as opposed to 24th) or the D70 (4th as opposed to 27th) then the difference is obvious.

The S2 is a truly great camera, imagewise, but as technology advances, it's limitations are showing up more and more.

Bottom line, if you don't NEED a super hot CF card don't buy one. Invest in a another microdrive or two and look after them.

Steve

[Bujo]

I know Swampy uses the Kingston cards...and I found them on the kingston site and newegg.com for 75 $ 512mb regular card and the elite pro 512mb cards for 79 $. I think that's a pretty good price.

I sent a PM to Swampy to see if he had any other places to shop. I'll wait to see what he says.

[Auminer]

I noticed that Costco has the Sandisk 512M regular CF cards for $68.49 and the Ultra II for $89.99. Not a bad deal either, I use them with no problems.

Dave

[Swampy]

And I answered back that the price on Kingston's website is 75 for the regular and 80 for the elite (faster card). Usually tax free and free fed-ex 3 day shipping. But you have to go to http://kingston.com/partnerpurchase to get these prices, otherwise, it's retail price will be used.

I noticed they have 1gb elite cards now finally. I'm going to get them to give me a few for give aways at the get together this September.