New Studio, New Cam, New Tips, ..and Hayley

[HairyHaggis]

Well, finally got key to new studio, got new S3, Nikon 24-120 VR lens, and studio lights, no seamless backdrop yet ... not picked it yet, but couldnt wait no longer to go have mess around in it.

Followed tips by Easternherp, stuck the camera in RAW F1 Mode, and on Daylight White Balance, and started a shooting, here is what I come up with ... Hayley sure is a stunning model to work with, and available for hire I might add.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts on this bunch.

[BARBARA LUKE]

Love them.... #2/3 my fav. the eyes look a bit blue on some... but it just might be my screen.....Did you use the Kodak air brush pro ???? if not how did you get the skin to look so good......the skin tone is lovely..... :goldcup:
Barbara

[easternherp]

1 and 4 seem to be very cold and blue in colour. Something I wouldn't have expected if the camera was set to f1 and daylight. Perhaps there is a lot of dark colours around somewhere, or perhaps it is from the backlight.

[rekhon]

I like the number 2, love the tight crop and posture.

[HairyHaggis]

Hmm, interesting ... I think I need to go back to the beginning on lighting.

Thanks

[easternherp]

There is something funny about the lighting. What did you use to convert the raw files? By the way I love the B/W one. You are lucky to have a good and willing model. One thing to watch out for is the skirting board.

[Igor]

Steve, here are MY PERSONAL COMMENTS, take them easy, amateur rant only!!! :crazy: :dunce: :)

OK, let's start from bad ;)
#1,2 -WB problem, camera too low (small head, big belly :) )
#3 - low-right corner... something's wrong with it :confused:
#4,5 - harsh backlight, eats up her hair (to the right of her head) almost completely.

The GOOD:
1. Nice model!
2. Superb #2, though I'd crop from bottom a bit.
3. Nice #3, if low-right corner fixed
And congrats on new studio !!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I feel you'll show us some GREAT work very soon! :righton:

[HairyHaggis]

There is something funny about the lighting. What did you use to convert the raw files? By the way I love the B/W one. You are lucky to have a good and willing model. One thing to watch out for is the skirting board.

I used PS CS2 to convert the RAW file. I am waiting to order seamless for the studio also, its finding the correct one to go for in the beginning as I dont want to discover I bought the wrong one from the outset.

The skirting wont be an issue once the seamless is bought.

:surrender

[HairyHaggis]

Steve, here are MY PERSONAL COMMENTS, take them easy, amateur rant only!!! :crazy: :dunce: :)

OK, let's start from bad ;)
#1,2 -WB problem, camera too low (small head, big belly :) )
#3 - low-right corner... something's wrong with it :confused:
#4,5 - harsh backlight, eats up her hair (to the right of her head) almost completely.

The GOOD:
1. Nice model!
2. Superb #2, though I'd crop from bottom a bit.
3. Nice #3, if low-right corner fixed
And congrats on new studio !!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I feel you'll show us some GREAT work very soon! :righton:


Thanks Igor, heres hoping :(

[Serge]

:righton: Way to go, you're on your way, lovely model to learn with, but get your wife to get her hair parted right :D

[HairyHaggis]

Thanks ... wife wasnt at this one ... she was in the house with the kids .... so trust a bloke not to see the hair, I checked with Hayley though, and its meant to be like that .... youngsters nowadays !!!

[easternherp]

Steve,

This is what I got from the RAF file with minor adjustments. I did not change the colour at all.
It looks like it is some post processing that is the problem.

[HairyHaggis]

Yes, I got this also .... but the walls are white in the studio ???

[easternherp]

Now I see what you have tried to do. You have tried to correct the colour to get the walls white, am I correct?

They are appearing warm as the colour from the model is being bounced back from the backlight.

Normally to get a whiter than white background you need to illuminate the background evenly with two or more lights and set the exposure to about half to one stop over the main light. If you only have two lights and they are both used to light the model then you will struggle to get white as no light or perhaps I should say less light is falling on the white background making it change colour.

I hope this makes sense.

[HairyHaggis]

Ahhh ok then .... so basically ... I need another two lights .... or another tungsten light source for lighting the background? Will I get away with one light?

Is there any other tempo fix for this issue?? A non white background ???

TIA

[easternherp]

Are you using flash lights or tungsten lights?
If you are using Flash lights with tungsten modelling lights then turn the modelling lights down or off so they don't affect the colour. They should go out at the point of shooting but don't always. If you use tungsten lights on the background you will need to put a blue filter over them to bring them back to daylight temperature if you are using flash as the main source.
Try and put the model further away from the background so that there is less reflection of what they are wearing and what is around. What colour is the floor?

[HairyHaggis]

Hi Andrew, thanks for that.

I am using the BOWENS 500W two light set out of Warehouse Express. Got them a wee while ago. The walls are white, with the skirting being varnished brown, and there is laminate flooring at the moment. I am going to order seamless backgrounds, hence the reason I aint to bothered about that at the moment.

I have attached a small photo taken with camera phone, but will give you an idea. The wall with the window on it is 5 mtrs, where the longer wall is 7 mtrs long.

There is one window you can see, and on the opposit wall to that there are two floor to ceiling windows too.

Its a nice space, lucky to have it for free, so I took it. All I need to do is build it up to how I want it, but this takes time and money .... so doing it bit at a time.

[easternherp]

Hi Steve,

If you look closely at the white walls you can see that there is colour being reflected by the floor on the left hand side and gets better towrds the centre of the photo.
I wouldn't worry too much about the white background not being totally white. The only way will be to get more lights which means more expense.
What you could do in the meantime is to put down some white paper on the floor to stop some of the reflection or a sheet.

[HairyHaggis]

Thanks for that Andrew.

So, do you think that my problem then is in the processing, where I am trying to make the background appear white as it should be, and this is in effect moving the actual tones out completely, giving the cold look which you see?

I will play around with the images again.
If you look at the one I posted first, which is the one I think I sent you the RAF file of is actually done by clicking AUTO during the RAW import process. Which means that this is how PS thinks it should be ... so could this be clouding my thought proces aswell ???

Oh ... and one final thing, the bloke who gave me the studio space tells me that there are wooden slatted ventian blinds getting fitted next week for me to, this should also help.

[easternherp]

Don't use the auto, use your eyes and concentrate on the model and skin tones. With the S3 you will get warm whites and lovely skin tones.

[HairyHaggis]

OK, I will go through some more images tonight/tomorrow, and post them up, let me know your thoughts ... all of ya :help:

[Swampy]

Looking at your phone picture, I agree with Andrew, the wood floor is a major factor that's changing some of the color here. Are you shooting with the drapes open on the big window to the left as well? It looks like there's a lot of blue casts coming from that direction as well.

A Simple and inexpensive treatment for the floor is a white sheet or painters drop cloth. You might get more exposure from this as well as the white will reflect more light than the yellow. However, the floor is a glossy color so it may actually produce more reflected light, just in the wrong color.

Just my thoughts on that.

[Melody]

You can get that 'blue' regardless of floor color, here is shot to show you where lights are not 'EVEN' notice that is white seamless paper and where the lights are and are NOT on the background.

I can get white white all across behind that bike if I have it lighted evenly :) This was actually me just seeing if I had the bike where it should be on the glass.

As Andrew said if you want the 'white' background you'll have to light it seperately.

Melody

[Melody]

Played a bit with your first image you can make it white in PS if you ever needed to, quick run with digital bleach and then a bit of the brush, this was really fast if you took the time and effort it would look better.

Now I've gotta go really get to work on mine.....congrats on the new studio it looks fabulous.

Melody

[HairyHaggis]

We all got to start somewhere Melody ... thanks for the comments. I aint a pro in the studio just yet ... but like to dabble. I try to get in as much as I can, but times limited, working full time, baby in the house ... which leaves only an hour or so in the evenings.

Hayley is a good girl, always willing to help me out in the studio. SO when I have time, I give her a call and away we go.

I think that once I get teh even background I can work on lighting better, as I will now plan to get couple more lights, larger umbrella reflectors, and a bigger softbox ... all money, but we will get there .... kinda disheartening sometimes, but gives me time to work on processing too when am fed up :)

[HairyHaggis]

.... quick run with digital bleach and then a bit of the brush, Melody

What is this digital bleach you speak of ???

[Melody]

:woot: We all got to start somewhere Melody ... thanks for the comments. I aint a pro in the studio just yet ... but like to dabble. I try to get in as much as I can, but times limited, working full time, baby in the house ... which leaves only an hour or so in the evenings.

Hayley is a good girl, always willing to help me out in the studio. SO when I have time, I give her a call and away we go.

I think that once I get teh even background I can work on lighting better, as I will now plan to get couple more lights, larger umbrella reflectors, and a bigger softbox ... all money, but we will get there .... kinda disheartening sometimes, but gives me time to work on processing too when am fed up :)

Hey I'm not one either! :woot: But if we share what we've found as we go hopefully it helps, then of course the big guys can come in and tell me I've got it all wrong anyway! :lol:

What about 3 lights two on the backdrop and one with a reflector on the subject? That's if a white backdrop is that desireable to you? I agree it's much more of an investment then I originally thought it would be the lights are just the beginning as you know :)

The digital bleach is an action I got on Pro4um, Bryan Duckett mentioned it, I'm not sure if it's available otherwise I've not done a google search it might be available elsewhere.

Your doing great don't get disheartened, CHIN UP! AND SMILE!

Melody

[HairyHaggis]

Yeah Melody I will be just cracking on with it ... gotta do it to get better at it.

Hey am just gonna vent tonight. Heres the scenario.

I did some shots for my wifes friends with their kids. Invited them over to the house, setup the lights, backdrops, etc, you know the shots, the kids were Molly and Mirren, well everything was good, parents were happy, signed model release forms for me showing images in portfolio and website etc..... gets phone call, asking about contact sheets. Goes and gets them printed, hands them into the parent of Mirren, and waits.

Few days later, receives a phone call, parent of child orders 2 prints, wants more but decides not to as £10.00 (USD$18.00) is too much to pay for a 9x6 mounted print. So after a little haggling and because she is family friend, I give her 3 prints unmounted for £20.00 .... fair .. or so I thought ...

.. so were out, the family and I tonight .. buying new furniture for girls bedroom, and a trampoline, (dont ask) .... and I gets a call ....

"Hi .... its *****, Ive had a little think about the prints, they are great, I love them .... and really want them ... but think that you are being a little bit cheeky asking £10.00 per print for them. Even though you said 3 for £20, I still think you are being greedy"

I replied that fair enough if thats how you feel I will keep the prints, no hard feelings, and I would collect them.

"I havent got them here I took into school to show friends, I wont have them until tomorrow"

OK, call me when they are back and I shall come collect them.

"OK ... I really want the prints, though but know that its only £2 to get a 9x6 print done in SpeedySnaps in ASDA (Walmart) where you got these done. So think you being too greedy"

OK, I wil keep the prints. Thank you.

.....

Few minutes goes by .... another phone call .... and I thought, ok, shes calling back to apologise, and reconsider ....

"Hi, listen I've just been thinking that if that is your attitude and this is how you want to run your business then I am disgusted, and would like you to remove the photo's of my kid from your website, and I am sure when ***** knows this also, she will want hers removed too."

Fine, this will be done this evening when I get home.

"OK .... bye"

And there you have it .... now my wife and I are pretty angry about the whole thing, but I aint gonna sweat the small stuff. SHe doesnt want the prints or doesnt want to pay the, in my opinion very good price she was getting the prints for, so be it, but to state that my attitude was bad, and because she can get a 9x6 for £2.00 I am exceedingly greedy and selfish when she was doing ME a favour helping me out with my portfolio .... please ..... I just was gob smacked I didnt even think about telling her about the following:

2 hours shoot
1 hour processing prints
2 trips to lab
cost of contacts and prints
two trips to her house to deliver contacts and prints
and not forgetting the general no other charges, and time I put into doing this for her and her kids.

It just amazes me sometimes. Now she will prob return the prints tomorrow evening, but I at the moment cannot face her through fear of having this attitude she asys I have, so will go bury my head in the studio tomorrow.

Keep the chin up ... and dont sweat the small stuff my wife keeps telling me.

:surrender :surrender

opinions ???

[Duck]

chin up...!!!

You experienced something that every photographer in business for themselfs has faced one time or another... your problem is that it has happened right at the start. :mad2:

When I started out... (home studio, so I had very low overhead) I was willing to give free sessions, and some (i did same some) free prints, in exchange of using some of the images in my advertising and website...

You might want to reconsile with her... if she is someone that might but a bad word out about you. I usually dont like to give in, but you must explain to her that your prices are on average with other PROFESSIONAL Photographers in the area, and sure she can get SNAP SHOTS printed at ASDA for £2, but you are charging for PROFESSIONAL Work... :tongue2:

I think you could work something out, but dont give in to soon... and remember it is a fine line you are workin with. :beat:

Best of Luck...

[easternherp]

I wouldn't give in. It is hard not to but as you are offering a professional service you have to offer professional prices. Have a look at what other local pro's charge and I think you will be surprised. I charge £15 for a 10"x8" picture in a folder. I think she is getting a good deal.

[Markytp]

Steve,

You will face this and many other problems on your journey. What the "clients" don't see is yes, it may have only cost you £2 to get the image printed, but what about the surrounding costs involved? The cost of the equipment, the cost of the time to edit, the cost of the electricty used and I bet they got a cup of tea or coffee for the adults and soft drinks for the kids when they came round.

It all adds up.

Your situation is a tricky one, you want some images for your portfolio to show off your capabilities, but don't want to give them away free, you are after all running a company.

Solution?

There is no easy one. Each situation needs to be treated individually, but my opening gambit with clients when I want to use their images in my portfolio is buy one, get one free. This equates to a 50% discount on your retail price, and I point this out so they fully understand just what a huge discount they are getting.

Everyone likes something for nothing, so if they are paying full price for one image, then getting a second for free, they feel they are "winning".

It's a fine line to tread. I only ever offer the above if they bring it up. Usually I just tell them that they are "so photogenic, they DESERVE to be on my site in my portfolio". Flattery can work wonders :)

As to your current situation, if it was me, I would write them a very polite letter, explaining that you have overheads costs etc and are only charging a fair price for the services you provide. In the letter explain that you are sorry, though fully understand, that they no longer wish to be in your online portfolio using the words "it's a shame, your children are so photogenic, they DESERVE to be on my site in my portfolio" :)

In these kind of situations, some you win, some you lose, but don't give in, maintain your professionalism and treat them with respect even if it is only one way from you to them. At least that way they don't have any ammo to hurl at you and you can hold your head high.

Mark

[HairyHaggis]

I will speak to the woman when she comes back with the prints. I am sure that when she comes up to return them and I explain the situation regarding time, money, travel, and what not ... she might understand, but I am not going to fold and say, ok then ... take the prints.... if I start as I mean to go on, then I cant go wrong, I am not a charity.

Let her go try getting "pro" photos done elsewhere and see if she gets 3 mounted prints for £20 !!!

Anyway ... not going to lose any more sleep over it ... was quite an unsettling experience yesterday, so its her loss. If she wants to say bad things, there is nothing I can do about it, but my prints in the long run will speak for themselves.

THe price I was asking was on par with other local guys, and cheaper too as there was no sitting fee as such.

I am maintaining professionalism, hence the reason I said ok, return the prints, no hard feelings, but she feels differently. She recons that by me agreeing to take prints back she ordered with no hard feelings, then my attitude is not the right one, and she hopes I burst into flames for my sins !!!

So, this is why I am digging my heels in and saying, ok ... you dont want them, you are not getting them.

We will see what happens when she returns them. Its a pity too because my wife and her are friends, and I dont want their relationship suffering because she feels as if she should have got a free run at the services.

Will let you know how it progresses :crazy:

[Theo2005]

Tough call.

That's the problem with working for relatives and friends - they like to get everything cheap. I take it you didn't have a deal beforehand - before the shoot I mean... Something to remember next time :baldy:

And it may turn out a bit more complicated (if you haven't already considered it):
Getting the prints back is one thing...and it would have worked yesteryear. But today, everyone has a PC and a scanner As well as a crappy "photoprinter". :(

I wish you good luck and patience

Theo

[BARBARA LUKE]

Yes i think she will have them scaned and printed by now........so your time cost nothing... :woot:
Ask her to come and do some house work "" like the clean the windows , mow the garden, weed the flowerbeds, cleaning the car..."""" or do your food shopping for very little or no payment see what she has to say......



I too am rubish asking people for money.... As far as asking family for money, well i have spent hours on family pics ""sisters/ neice's / their babies, my friends and their children...... just about everyone.....not received one penny....."""" just got a O wow they are lovely thank you O yes once i got a bunch of flowers..... :woot: ...
So good luck .... Barbara

[Melody]

Room for one more opinion? Just a blonde viewpoint ;)

Here's what works for 'me' anyway and since we are both starting out it might help.

First I will NOT even turn the camera on until they have signed that model release, doesn't matter to me if they don't want a single print when I'm done they've signed it. In 'some' cases I will waive the 'session' fee if it's a subject I want otherwise nope, and a model release is still signed.

Secondly I don't take any images until they've seen my prices, if they want the Walmart/BabiesRUs mass price that's where they should go to have their images done in the first place.

Do a viewing session on your computer if they want them fine, they can order them and pay for them THEN, they sign which they've ordered. No cancellations or changes after 24hours.

THEN order your prints.

WHEN they pick them up they sign a 'delivery notice' that the prints are what they ordered and acceptable.

If your not taking images of your 'target' market....then the word of mouth advertising you will get isn't what you desire in the first place. IF you cave on your prices to this woman she will tell everyone she knows for them to neogotiate with you that you will bend and if you don't, then they feel you were only fair to her...it's not a winning situation no matter how you look at it.

What you might say and yeah I've got a bit of an 'attitude' is that...I'm sorry this didn't work out for you...I am a professional, this is the income for my family not something I do as a 'hobbie' perhaps I can notifiy you when I have a 'special' and you can see if that is within your budget for the special moments I capture of your childrens youth.


Some ideas..........offer a session if you like however place a dollar amount on it so they realize it's NOT free your 'waiving the 'fee' and offer one free print as well for additional enticement.. these are conditioned upon a signed model release.....IF they choose to purchase more then that's just wonderful...btw if your doing children it's very difficult for parents to choose just one......or go one step further...the free print is the 'artist' choice.

Forget this woman she's not the client you want in the first place and neither are her friends...if that is their budget, just move on and target the others your emotion and time will be more profitable for it.

I've got a card/advertisement I made up for marketing for Howard if he saw a cute kid I might want, turns out we never needed to use them. Never bothers me to walk up to anyone but some are rather uncomfortable...or don't want to interupt would you like me to send you a sample so you could try a similar format to maybe increase the kiddy crowd??

Melody

[proberts]

The top has too much going on- the exposure looks good to me, but the pockets and logos detract from her- I say lose the top! :cheers:

Seriously, something plain would be nice, she's got a great look, her face should be all the attention necessary.

Paul

[proberts]

Yeah Melody I will be just cracking on with it ... gotta do it to get better at it.

Hey am just gonna vent tonight. Heres the scenario.

I did some shots for my wifes friends with their kids. Invited them over to the house, setup the lights, backdrops, etc, you know the shots, the kids were Molly and Mirren, well everything was good, parents were happy, signed model release forms for me showing images in portfolio and website etc..... gets phone call, asking about contact sheets. Goes and gets them printed, hands them into the parent of Mirren, and waits.

Few days later, receives a phone call, parent of child orders 2 prints, wants more but decides not to as £10.00 (USD$18.00) is too much to pay for a 9x6 mounted print. So after a little haggling and because she is family friend, I give her 3 prints unmounted for £20.00 .... fair .. or so I thought ...

.. so were out, the family and I tonight .. buying new furniture for girls bedroom, and a trampoline, (dont ask) .... and I gets a call ....

"Hi .... its *****, Ive had a little think about the prints, they are great, I love them .... and really want them ... but think that you are being a little bit cheeky asking £10.00 per print for them. Even though you said 3 for £20, I still think you are being greedy"

I replied that fair enough if thats how you feel I will keep the prints, no hard feelings, and I would collect them.

"I havent got them here I took into school to show friends, I wont have them until tomorrow"

OK, call me when they are back and I shall come collect them.

"OK ... I really want the prints, though but know that its only £2 to get a 9x6 print done in SpeedySnaps in ASDA (Walmart) where you got these done. So think you being too greedy"

OK, I wil keep the prints. Thank you.

.....

Few minutes goes by .... another phone call .... and I thought, ok, shes calling back to apologise, and reconsider ....

"Hi, listen I've just been thinking that if that is your attitude and this is how you want to run your business then I am disgusted, and would like you to remove the photo's of my kid from your website, and I am sure when ***** knows this also, she will want hers removed too."

Fine, this will be done this evening when I get home.

"OK .... bye"

And there you have it .... now my wife and I are pretty angry about the whole thing, but I aint gonna sweat the small stuff. SHe doesnt want the prints or doesnt want to pay the, in my opinion very good price she was getting the prints for, so be it, but to state that my attitude was bad, and because she can get a 9x6 for £2.00 I am exceedingly greedy and selfish when she was doing ME a favour helping me out with my portfolio .... please ..... I just was gob smacked I didnt even think about telling her about the following:

2 hours shoot
1 hour processing prints
2 trips to lab
cost of contacts and prints
two trips to her house to deliver contacts and prints
and not forgetting the general no other charges, and time I put into doing this for her and her kids.

It just amazes me sometimes. Now she will prob return the prints tomorrow evening, but I at the moment cannot face her through fear of having this attitude she asys I have, so will go bury my head in the studio tomorrow.

Keep the chin up ... and dont sweat the small stuff my wife keeps telling me.

:surrender :surrender

opinions ???

Explain your "costs" and tell her that you can't feed yourself without making some money for your time. Tell her what she'd pay anywhere else, then tell her that you were doing HER a favor, but you don't need to lose money each time you work, that's not going to keep food on the table- let alone pay for lights, camera and time.

Finally, tell her that you appreciate her accounting of the costs, but you're obviously not in accord and that you'll just take the prints back. Six quid each for a print isn't bad- don't let one person ruin your day- if you compromise on price once, you'll always sell yourself short.

Paul

[Camarochas]

Steve,

You can try replacing the color of the background in P-Shop. It can be a bit tedious but it works. There are a couple of ways to do it. Most books on the software give instructions.

I like #2 except where her arm (elbow) is coming into the camera. It looks too large. Maybe if she were to swing her arms around toward her right side more so the camera was seeing the edge of the arms instead of looking down the length.

You're fortunate to have such a lovely model.

Charlie

[HairyHaggis]

Thanks again Charlie :)